Foreshadowing Is Not Character Development

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  • Trope Anatomy
    Trope Anatomy   1 months back

    edit: back on twitter if you wanna follow me: https://www.twitter.com/tahkawa
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Original comment: Been a while lol Hope you liked the video! Please thumbs up the video if you did 😊 Sorry this one is so Thrones heavy for those that don’t watch the show. I’ll be back with something broader (unless I make a video on the final episode). Hopefully it won’t take months! Thank you a ton for 50k subs and being patient with my non existent upload schedule.

    • Hingle McCringleberry
      Hingle McCringleberry  2 weeks back

      @Trope Anatomy ouch, turn of the auto-translate for other countries!!!!!!! "Vorausdeutungen sind keine Charakterentwicklung" that is not even real german. nobody likes that youtube feature!!!!

    • Sky Walker
      Sky Walker  3 weeks back

      It's like you almost had it but messed up with your theory of how the show was successful at showing that Dany could turn dark. There were not. Plain and simple. That's why it was never going to work in the end for her to have the sudden character change, sorry. As I said before, they would have had to change her character altogether. It seems GRRM and D&D never knew how to really did this so they just rolled with her character becoming increasingly popular.

    • ComaBerenices
      ComaBerenices  3 weeks back

      RJ Tiger, “Rationalise past people in history”? Well, let’s see. Hitler didn’t destroy Paris when it surrendered to him. Stalin didn’t torch all Germans when Berlin surrendered to him (even though the Germans killed Stalin’s own son). So what’s Daenerys’ “sudden madness” then? That she’s literally more angry, violent & merciless than Hitler and Stalin? 😂

  • sitamun
    sitamun  1 hours back

    I think in the books, Aegon Targaryen, the pretender posing as Rhaegar and Elia’s son, will be Daenerys’ downfall. He is a smart and well-loved young man who is showing great talent in the art of rulership and military strategy (being educated by Varys and Illyrio Mopatis). The last we saw him, he was already campaigning in Westeros to take the Iron Throne, whilst at the same time, Daenerys is struggling to keep Meereen under control as everyone tears her city apart. I think in the future, when Dany arrives in Westeros, seeing Aegon be everything she wanted to be in a ruler (loved, respected and supported by the common folk) may trigger in her a desperation to assert herself as a ruler just as strong and capable as Aegon and to protect what is ‘rightfully’ hers. She may even kill him to ensure that the Iron Throne belongs to her and her alone. Just like in the show, I think Aegon Targaryen will be a test for Dany and how she responds will ultimately seal her fate.

    • jaypee zulieta
      jaypee zulieta  16 hours back

      A good hero turning evil character arc = Arthas
      Even games have better writers

      • William Munny
        William Munny  19 hours back

        She snapped. Soldiers commit war crimes during battle all the time. And she could not be kept alive for two seasons. She had to be taken out quickly . She declared her plan to continue conquer by dragon fire. Her demise is not so unbelievable. Don’t overthink this

        • Rosamund Powell
          Rosamund Powell  24 hours back

          I am going to argue against her end. I'm going to argue against it, because we've already seen the "mad queen" trope play out with Cersei Lannister by the end of Season 6. Having Daenerys succumb to the same trope within two episodes and twelve episodes is just ridiculous to me. And very unoriginal. I have no problem with Daenerys being capable of ruthlessness and cruelty. She wasn't alone. Many characters on that show were . . . including Ned Stark's children and nephew. It didn't matter whether the characters were originally painted as protagonists or antagonists, many of them were capable of being cruel and ruthless. But to have Daenerys repeat Cersei's character arc, let alone in such a short space of time, was simply ridiculous to me.

          • CheesecakeLasagna
            CheesecakeLasagna  2 days back

            This gives me HIMYM finale flashbacks.

            • PrkrMc
              PrkrMc  2 days back

              Mad Danny should've been an entire season or two. Mad Danny on a dragon would be the greatest villain ever seen. Then put Jon on the other dragon fighting against Daenerys and you got yourself the greatest season in television ever.

              • Marie Schröder
                Marie Schröder  2 days back

                I can’t believe it... Daenerys IS NOT MAD. I can’t explain what she is but she isn’t mad...

                • Amanda Frazier
                  Amanda Frazier  2 days back

                  And another thing. If they wanted us pouncing on a breadcrumb trail of sinister moments foretelling a character's turn towards murderous lunacy, can I just direct all our attention back over to the girl with the collection of actual human faces? Hey, I enjoyed Arya's killing spree as much as the next gal, but let's be real: there were times when she had a borderline Joffrey-esque glee in her own sadism. Pushing the sword reeeal slowly into the guy in the tavern brawl with the hound, looking psyched while she did it? Blissing out while she perforated Meryn Trent? Staring down at Walder Frey like she was gonna need a frickin' cigarette? And hey, not saying any of them didnt earn a good bloody end. But her demeanor "laid the seeds" of homicidal madness far more thoroughly than anything Dany ever did. "I k ow a killer when I see one." Thanks, Suzie Stabs-a-Lot. Thank you for that valuable insight.

                  • 金정욱
                    金정욱  3 days back

                    Check out Game theory’s Daenerys is going mad theory.

                    • Mr Predatorrz
                      Mr Predatorrz  4 days back

                      Is it just me who thinks the unsullied should have just been wiped out by now after Mereen rebels mereen war with the rich taking castley rock and the the ice king war and the kings landing war there was only 8000 so I doubt that they should have a significant number by the end unless they are just duplicating

                      • Mr Predatorrz
                        Mr Predatorrz  4 days back

                        I don’t think Arya did kill Walder Frey’s children I think it was just a plan to make him feel like he had no hope screaming/yelling would do nothing. His children where killed with poison when drinking that sweet sweet wine

                        • X Night x Wing x
                          X Night x Wing x  4 days back

                          Uhm yeah, those examples you gave about daenarys being foreshadowed, are horrible fucking examples. She killed people that put her life in jeopardy, or put innocents lives at jeopardy. Same as every other fucking character has done on the show. Everything she did up until the point she burnt kings landing had reason and was 100% justified.

                          I had to stop watching and downvote you after that, not sure what your getting at but it doesn’t make sense. You say you don’t agree with the writers, yet you list retarded examples of “foreshadowing” when she killed people that deserved to die?

                          • Tony Sinc
                            Tony Sinc  4 days back

                            Lmao you said that the show blamed it on genetics 😂😂 wow. They never said that lol . Just cause you don’t understand the difference between foreshadowing and psychology doesn’t mean they didn’t have any base to her decision.

                            • jackson waters
                              jackson waters  4 days back

                              They could of just make the whole season about Dany slowly becoming emotionally unstable and see her tragic downfall. Most episodes in got are more than just 6 episodes. They had plenty of time to do this. And if it took longer then they should of been prepared for this change for the character. I think the reason why season 8 was disappointing was because D and D just wanted to end the show so badly. They just couldn't keep up the show forever and being exhausted after trying to create new source material (since they ran out of books) must of been too much for them. So they got lazy and rushed passed everything that could of been great. Any potential was wasted by the writers just to wrap up the show already.

                              • Jonny B
                                Jonny B  6 days back

                                I don't know. Dragon Fire doesn't seem all that bad of a way to die, as far as dying goes, haha. I mean, all your nerves are incinerated within a second flat.

                                • CatzEyes93
                                  CatzEyes93  6 days back

                                  We went from three strong, empowered women with independent goals and dreams to their last major scenes being them begging men to stay with them until the end.

                                  • Alexandre Lot
                                    Alexandre Lot  6 days back

                                    Daenerys and Anakin share both a tragedy in power (and love, ultimatly). But personally, I don't trully believe the timing was a problem. Writing and motivating for the characters was something that frustrated in overall. People "kinda of forgetting" or pointless arcs without any reasonable logic, when the people of Game of Thrones are deeply envolved in clever strategies and smart positioning. We can argue whenever this strategies were in fact trully effective (but that is afterall, the "Game" of Thrones). That is why the downfall of Anakin seems more logic, although a lot more hushed, than Dany's. He does a complete strategical move against the Jedi, motivated not only by his love for Padme, his deception makes closure by denial of his own actions that lead him to his ultimate mistake and because he trully belives that the Jedi were plotting on his back. Dany is put in the same position, also feeling betrayed because her advisors plotted on her back, but everything was done at light of her own actions, she never denied fire and blood, but there would only be two plot subvertions here. Either she would kill Cersei and destroys the city if the Lannister Army and King's Landing people resisted her, making her decision coherent to a strategy failure from Cersei, but also making Dany sure that Fire and Blood should be at least her policy (Jorah, Barristan and Tyrion knew how to control the Fire and Blood at some point...) or giving up the attack as it would not progress to slaughter, deposing Cersei for good giving her the same "end" as she gave to Ned...

                                    • Daenerys Targaryen
                                      Daenerys Targaryen  6 days back

                                      I agree with you kind sir! 😊

                                      • Guess my name
                                        Guess my name  7 days back

                                        I'm gonna go to the book store and buy the books instead now

                                        • Hy-drenalin
                                          Hy-drenalin  7 days back

                                          Couldn`t said it better. It is exactly that.

                                          • Brownei
                                            Brownei  1 weeks back

                                            And I guess, the writers kinda forgot about the characters they wrote about

                                            • Brownei
                                              Brownei  1 weeks back

                                              Something dies inside of me, anytime I see a shot of the red wedding

                                              • Gaia Elkington
                                                Gaia Elkington  1 weeks back

                                                As a person who works with stories for a living (not on GOT) NICE analysis

                                                • Hector Lugo
                                                  Hector Lugo  1 weeks back

                                                  I wholeheartedly agree.
                                                  Just a few thoughts: If any character, Cersei was The Mad Queen she, threatened, lied, cheated, had children by her brother, murdered a King, blew up the Sept of Bailor and all it’s trial attendees both friend and foe and with it an entire section and civilians in King’s Landing. Now that was crazy!
                                                  In the final episode I noticed, that Cersi never commanded that the bells ring in surrender because the bells were never meant to ring for surrender. Consequently, we never saw who rang the bells. Jaimie was busy getting to Cersi. That “bell ploy,” was Tyrion’s invention. Suspecting that he was a traitor, knowing he had released his Brother Jaimie, Dyanaris couldn’t trust him and seeing Cersei watching calmly from her balcony, who could blame her for fearing a trap. And rightfully so, The Queen of Dragons was, “Not today Lannisters!” and Fire and Blood had its reign. Dyanaris wasn’t a Mad Queen, her downfall came when she told Jon (brainwashed by Tyrion) that, those with other opinions as to what is good, would not get to choose and since that included Sansa, and Arya. He stabbed her to save his family, not kill a new tyrant. And don’t get me started on “Bran the Broken,” who came “...all this way,” to be King. That final Season had more wholes than a slice of rotting Swiss Cheese! I hope GRRM clears this mess up sooner than later in THE WINDS OF WINTER & A DREAM OF SPRING. Write GRRM, write!

                                                  • Nick Corvello
                                                    Nick Corvello  1 weeks back

                                                    Excellent video, sir! You nailed it right on the head exactly why the "mad queen" turn didn't work in the show

                                                    • Shamaiah Ellis
                                                      Shamaiah Ellis  1 weeks back

                                                      Point blank all the characters went dumb and dumber yes you can argue that dany burns her enemies but never the innocent that's why kingslanding was such a disappointment.

                                                      Here is my take on an ending

                                                      Cersie point blank refuses to fight the night this immediately prompts a war with Cersie right there and then because dany is now pissed off. It causes a conflict with Jon who goes back to the north to fight his war being disappointed in dany's decision.

                                                      And so the war of Cersie and dany begins. Dany gives the people of kingslanding a choice to be free they refuse and choose cersie. Tyrion tries to convince his sister that she will fall and what not but you know cersie.
                                                      She has a discussion with Jamie about about her master plan to destroy dany Jamie starts to see her as even more of a monster.

                                                      Dany loses a dragon in that war loses missande realizes the people there hate and fear her she is now disgusted they chose Cersie. when some of her unsallieds and dothraki breach the wall and all seems lost for cersie she lights the dragon fire under the city killing some of danies army and her own bought army and the ppl of kingslanding she hates so much because thats cersie

                                                      Dany is outraged looks at the castle in disgust and rides drogon to burn it with the true mad queen she escapes but is captured by greyworm who gets the orders from danny to cut her head off dany now hates what the throne represents after everything burns it and snow immediately starts to fall and everything cuts to jon and the comming battle of winterfell which looks like a lost battle.

                                                      Dany goes back to winterfell where all the major deaths happen within the long night. This in my opinion should have been the last stand. Then a ninth season raps up everything with the night king. And who gets to live or die then who after gets to build a new legacy seeing the throne was destroyed by danny.

                                                      • obsessive fangirl
                                                        obsessive fangirl  1 weeks back

                                                        Look how they massacred my girl. Can you please please do a video on Jaime like this this was so well done.

                                                        • Anant Singh Durgavanshi

                                                          Sansa proved to be the greatest bitch

                                                          • Anant Singh Durgavanshi

                                                            I used to respect Varys a lot in the beginning.
                                                            He used to be intelligent, the spider , master of whispers and what not until he came to aid Dany.
                                                            He really became impotent when he was serving Dany.
                                                            We don't see any of his children spies around him, while he used to aid Dany.
                                                            As soon as he turned against her, children came back to him.

                                                            Well this is of no surprise, Tyrion Lannister, the most witty character used to be so productive even against stannis , in his "first war", even though he didn't knew much about his enemy. But when he comes to aid Dany he becomes stupid all of a sudden-all his strategies prove useless against his sister, whom he knew quite well.

                                                            Jon Snow - The "most honourable", in seven kingdoms could behead, hang ppl who went against rules--is justified.
                                                            When Dany burns Tarlys, even after giving them a choice, and even though its war--still she is mad.

                                                            I won't justify what Dany did in the concluding episodes, but extremely disappointed by the way which show developers used.
                                                            After a great character build up of 7 fu**in seasons, You turn her mad, simply because there had been long suspicions and talks of her going mad, and that she is daughter of someone who went mad? or just to make sure the show did not end being too predictable?

                                                            The show makers should have at least shown a transition in character so that all this cud have been digested. Maybe things r quite different in books, but they completely ruined the show finale for sure.

                                                            • Sheets Choc
                                                              Sheets Choc  1 weeks back

                                                              Anant Singh Durgavanshi Summed up my thoughts 👍

                                                          • Vincent Cuti
                                                            Vincent Cuti  1 weeks back

                                                            Cersie made a better mad queen.

                                                            • LoveInTheLight
                                                              LoveInTheLight  1 weeks back

                                                              I agree, I was a mother of dragons fan in the very beginning but then I started to noticed something off in her personality.. ANYWAY supposably the directors had made a deadline for the show to end at a 'specific date' for the show to end because they wanted to get started on other projects. So they rushed it, I like how the battle at winterfell came over but when Arya killed him at the very end.. hm was too easy? I mean yes she's a total badass, she's an assassin. I get how they did Dany's cuz in a way it seems like she just snaps. She's held back for so long that it just came out like "Fuck this". And burned everything. I really liked the ending I'm just a Lil disappointed that there wasn't more to show.

                                                              • May Louw
                                                                May Louw  1 weeks back

                                                                No this is like real life, where there is no rhyme or reason... which is why I love and hate this twist at the same time. You are expecting logic and reason for characters under extreme stress. Absolute power???

                                                                • Sheogorath
                                                                  Sheogorath  1 weeks back

                                                                  Speaking of real life, rules do exist and many, many books written about such rules as to what logic and reason to expect from people in extreme situations. In the german criminal code that is especially §§ 32-35.

                                                              • I'm LordOfTheChin
                                                                I'm LordOfTheChin  1 weeks back

                                                                Hey donate to Emilia Clarke's charity SameYou www.justgiving.com/fundraising/justicefordaenerys

                                                                *This does not go into Emilia's personal bank account* www.sameyou.org/about/

                                                                • Hero of Trains
                                                                  Hero of Trains  1 weeks back

                                                                  I think just a little scene where she sees, just a few perhaps, people of Kingslanding being disgusting in her eyes would have helped. Like maybe citizens robbing each other, trampling children, lords abandoning peasants, peasants abandoning family.
                                                                  So Dany looks and thinks, “This is what I bleed for? This is what I fought YEARS for, sacrificed my dragons and armies for? For this degenerate shit hole? No.. No, damn these people. Damn this city. Damn everything.”

                                                                  • Sheogorath
                                                                    Sheogorath  1 weeks back

                                                                    You can write that down easily, ie damn all, but it's extremely far away from doing so in reality. As shown in the show her "decision" ( be it rational or emotional ) makes no sense whatsoever.

                                                                • Ange
                                                                  Ange  1 weeks back

                                                                  D&D just use her past as their cover up because the decision came out of nowhere.

                                                                  • LDBlokland
                                                                    LDBlokland  1 weeks back

                                                                    Never seen the show, but damn this Dany person seems like a dick

                                                                    • Vanessa Ives
                                                                      Vanessa Ives  1 weeks back

                                                                      Mad Queen my ass! That title goes to Cersei! She has gained the right to be called The Mad Queen since episode one! But unfortunately the writers had it that Cersei would die some poor sobbing pregnant woman whilst the breaker of chains gets the tyrant/mad status all because of her Targaryen name!

                                                                      • The Eye Odin Lost
                                                                        The Eye Odin Lost  2 weeks back

                                                                        You summed it up well. Honestly, its basically that. :I

                                                                        • Lucas Vasconcelos
                                                                          Lucas Vasconcelos  2 weeks back

                                                                          Tyrion saying that cheering Daenerys for killing evil people is a bad thing is ridiculous. Since when this is a bad thing? The only time killing someone evil is seen as a bad thing is when Jaime kills the Mad King. People started to call Jaime the Kingslayer and say that he was not an honorable man for that. Still this is nothing compared to Tyrion saying that Daenerys was going crazy all along and they pretended otherwise.

                                                                          • peacechickification
                                                                            peacechickification  2 weeks back

                                                                            my main concern of the last season is all of the viewers that either don't have the ability or the will to see how these characters exist all around us in real life, and expect their hand to be held through everything instead of being able to be empathetic to the characters and figure out themselves why these characters act like this.
                                                                            the beauty of this show is that it's not in a vacuum, it's a fantasy show that shows us our own world, instead of an idealized one.

                                                                            • Sheogorath
                                                                              Sheogorath  1 weeks back

                                                                              I'd like to see on how you'd elaborate on that.

                                                                          • nosoynadaoriginal
                                                                            nosoynadaoriginal  2 weeks back

                                                                            OK, but... King Aerys II was a good king, it's been said many times, until he became mad, OVER THE COURSE OF YEARS, cause he developed senile dementia. Being ruthless is not the same as being mad... Even the mad king, he burned the Starks cause he felt threatened, he wanted to burn King's Landing cause he already lost, cause he was going to die anyway. The argument of "CrAzY pEoPlE aRe JuSt CrAzY" is stupid and lazy, making a "mad" character do whatever is convenient for the conflict to keep going is poor writing.

                                                                            • Max Covfefe
                                                                              Max Covfefe  2 weeks back

                                                                              "Foreshadowing Is Not Character Development..." I wish someone had told that to the writers of The Bible. An entire religion based on foreshadowing.

                                                                              • JarrettHouston
                                                                                JarrettHouston  2 weeks back

                                                                                Love the video, couldn't agree more.

                                                                                • AC4ace
                                                                                  AC4ace  2 weeks back

                                                                                  "(Her) Dragons burned very, very many people." I've just realized why this doesn't sit right with me. Prior to King's Landing, her dragons had burned, by my count (and discounting the Lannister army at the Goldroad), 11 people: Qartheen Warlock (forget his name), Kraznys, 4 or 5 Astapor soldiers, 2 Merenese 'nobles', and 2 Tarlys. Can't count Drogon's kills in the fighting pit, as Dany wasn't controlling him then, and it's not fair to count those offscreen, as there's no way to fairly count those. And I'd be surprised if she was shown burning more than 50 Lannister soldiers in the battle of the Goldroad. Even taking those she burned by other means (Miri maz Dur, the Khals and their bloodriders), I don't think she even broke 100.
                                                                                  And we can't fairly include the Lannister army, as that was war, and it's fair for her to use her dragons in war. After all, remember when Tyrion used Wildfire to burn Hundreds, if not THOUSANDS, at the Battle of Blackwater Bay? No one called him mad for doing that, and death by Wildfire is MUCH worse than death by dragonfire, as you can at least put out dragonfire.
                                                                                  So, 11 killed by dragonfire, another 2 dozen or so by other fire. Spread over 6 years or so. Given the context, I find it hard to use this as justification for what D&D had her do at King's Landing.

                                                                                  • Som Guy
                                                                                    Som Guy  2 weeks back

                                                                                    People mention foreshadowing moments like its super duper brilliant

                                                                                    • Ariadne Wolf
                                                                                      Ariadne Wolf  2 weeks back

                                                                                      I love this video!! Foreshadowing are seeds the writers have planted, but character development is the growth of those seeds until they reshape a character's personality and coping methods.
                                                                                      Love it.
                                                                                      And I think it's absolutely true that the downfall of various Starks felt compelling and satisfying, because their deaths were so clearly the result of their own poor judgment and poor choices.
                                                                                      Yet as the video suggests, Dany seems screwed either way. If she listens to her advisers, she loses; if she doesn't, she's perceived as the Mad Queen. If she reacts with rage or trauma, then she's being an evil crazy Targaryen; if she does not, then she loses her people who are closest to her, and she loses battles.
                                                                                      Bottom line: Dany went crazy because she's a girl and she's feminine and to the showrunners, that makes her crazy, or on the way to crazy. They didn't think they needed any justification other than that.
                                                                                      Turns out, they were wrong.

                                                                                      • Bob Spencer
                                                                                        Bob Spencer  2 weeks back

                                                                                        perfect ending to a perfect series